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Old 07-11-2006, 05:02 AM   #136
StonyLonesome
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Geez, where do I start? You all are giving me so many pointless suggestions, that I can't keep track of everything! First, Chavvah, I did fix my commas. Maybe I haven't fixed them in the first few chapters, but I still did in the later ones. I've just been too busy to do the same to the first few. I'll eventually get to it, though. Second, when did I say Mido was evil? I never said that AT ALL. Third, Kelli actually couldn't take care of herself too well when she first started wandering away. She was able to feed herself, that's it. And if you don't see how Kelli was able to survive in the Lost Woods, there's something wrong with you. The Great Deku Tree protected her, just like he did Link. And don't think she never came across a few healthy mushrooms while she was there. And how could a fairy get killed by a Stalfos you ask? OMG, do you realize how much bigger a Stalfos is than a fairy? And another thing, fairies don't seem to be able to fly very fast, so they couldn't dodge the blows. And about that scene with Kelli, Judo, and Judo's mother, when Kelli's eyes flashed yellow, Judo's mother was a little frightened because no Hylian's ever seen anything like that before. They thought her eyes doing that was a sign she had abilities that could possibly to harm to others, yet they couldn't. I think you're just looking for things to complain about, Chavvah. I've explained this stuff, so you don't have to worry about it anymore. And yes, I consider eye color changing mysterious. It's actually not a power at all, it's really just a sign she has mysterious powers. Have you read the book "The Girl with the Silver Eyes"? A girl named Katie had silver eyes and they were the mark of her mysterious ability to make things move without touching them. Well, same goes for Kelli and her eyes flashing different colors.

And you know what else? About all those other remarks of yours, you're just being mean. You're giving me pointless suggestions, you're saying you hate Kelli's horse for no reason, you're just plain mean. I try to improve my story and my plot and my characters, I try my best. But then you just come and throw it back in my face. I've even tried to listen to you about that comment on Kelli's flaws and stuff like that. I tried giving her flaws, you just don't seem to notice them. Just stop being so harsh and mean and maybe I will listen some more.

Now on to Steve's comments. I never said I learned not to use said a lot in fifth grade. I learned it in Middle School. I disagree with most of that stuff you've showed me and you should too, but you don't and I won't mess with that. I do agree, however, that character discriptions in stories shouldn't be too long. Using said too much is annoying and pointless. It takes the fun away from reading the story. Using words like replied, asked, exclaimed, cried, etc, along with adverbs sometimes is better and shows more emotion than dumb old annoying said.

Lakayal, why should I get rid of Kelli? She's the best character I've ever created. Mary Sue or not, she stays. Kelli is kind, brave, and if you hate her so much, well tough luck! She stays and that's final. And her powers aren't super powers. That should be obvious. I think ALL of you are giving me pointless remarks and just look for things to complain about. Can't you be a little nicer about it instead of being mean? And give me suggestions that aren't pointless? Please, all I ask is you be nicer about it and I'll listen some more.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:36 AM   #137
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We were all being nice in the beginning, (minus steve). You only considered us "mean" because you took what we said as a personal offense. After a while we did become increasingly mean only because you wouldn't listen, you only defended and blocked.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you about how far you're allowed to take your Artistic Freedom, whether I agree with it or not. What I do ask is that you stop trying to defend yourself. Just let that part go, and consider some of the things we are saying. We wouldn't be beating you over the head with clubs if you hadn't bitten our hands when we attempted to feed you your vegetables.

Now please, don't try to defend yourself, regarding this post as an attack, and we won't overwhelm you with thousands of "pointless" suggestions. We will offer them to you one step at a time.

What say you?
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:16 AM   #138
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No mater how much I'd love to argue with you further, what Psycho said about artistic freedom is right. You can do whatever the hell you want. But your story won't get any better.

But I will answer your perfectly valid question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StonyLonesome
Lakayal, why should I get rid of Kelli?

Perfectly Valid Reasons Why StonyLonesome Should Get Rid of Kelli

1. Because she's overdone. Every single one of her traits are overdone. She's a walking, talking cliche.
2. Because she's a pity party. Aaw, her parents are dead. Aaw, she has no real friends. Aaw, no one understands her. Pfft.
3. Because I know from experience it's a dumb idea. Oh, come on. It's not like I'm getting this from nowhere. I've created a character just like her, basically. He was good-looing and brave and tortured and ANGSTY and every good-guy was madly in love with him. Just like Kelli. And I completely eliminated him from the story. And then, as if by magic, the story was about a bazillion and one times better.
4. Because she's a plot device. A plot device is a thing in a story used to push the story along when the writer is incapable or unwilling to come up with a more creative solution. Danger senses and x-ray vision? Those traits reek of plot device.
5. Because she reminds me of Harry Potter. So, so much. And you have no idea how terrible that is that your character reminds me of Harry Potter.
6. Because "Kelli is kind, brave," and has all the traits of a too-strict boyscout. No one is that kind. No one is that brave. Normal people have flaws.
7. Because she's "SPECIAL" and "UNIQUE". OMFG everyone is special and unique, kiddo. SOOPER-SPESHUL characters are soooo glaringly annoying because they are told it. INCESSANTLY. This bogs down the plot and makes every little thing repetitive and obnoxious.
8. Because her character is unrealistic. Hate to break it to you, but there is no one as "flawless" as Kelli occurring in nature. Now I know this is a fantasy fanfic but even fanfic characters need to be people, too. Just read the book of any real professional. Every character is flawed. Even look around the site; the best writers flaw their characters. You'll never be as good as them unless you write realistic characters. Kelli is not one of them.
9. Because she is a Mary-Sue. And Mary-Sues on her scale need to be eliminated.
10. Because the story would be so much better without her. It really, really woud be.

Those are my reasons. Fight every one if you really want to; throw a tantrum and list reasons why Kelli should say on and on. Maybe earlier in your story when people were reviewing you it was kinda funny that you had so much faiuth in your character. But now that your story is over and you continue to fight relentlessly calling us "mean"?

And now, another nice list.

Nine Incredibly Useful Suggestions (that are not in any way pointless)

1. If you revise your story ever, get rid of Kelli. She makes your story bad.
2. If you write another story, in any genre, do not put Kelli or any character remotely like Kelli, in that story. She'll make that story bad.
3. Take the Mary-Sue test for Kelli. And show us your score.
4. Less dialogue, more description. You still need more description. Muuuch more.
5. Use paragraphing. A new, spaced-out paragraph for every line opf dialogue, if you will.
6. Try to be less proud of your story. Try to stop saying your story is great. It comes across as extremely arrogant and rude.
7. Read some of the works of the authors I mentioned before, like I said. Then reply to them. Then, give me a list as to all the reasons yours is better. Hah.
8. Write better and prove to us you're as good as you gloat you are.
9. Listen to everyone else's suggestions. Because they are not pointless.

Tada. Everything you asked for, in one nice little post.
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Old 07-11-2006, 11:31 AM   #139
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Stoney omfg why dont you realise it, why dont you realise these people are trying to help you and not insult you! The comments made by these people are for your bennefit as a writer. Take the comments in and use them to make your writing better, Nobody is attacking you! Steve appears to be a very accoomplished with the works of writing so you should take advice from him.

As for your comment earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StonyLonesome
Now on to Steve's comments. I never said I learned not to use said a lot in fifth grade. I learned it in Middle School. I disagree with most of that stuff you've showed me and you should too, but you don't and I won't mess with that. I do agree, however, that character discriptions in stories shouldn't be too long. Using said too much is annoying and pointless. It takes the fun away from reading the story. Using words like replied, asked, exclaimed, cried, etc, along with adverbs sometimes is better and shows more emotion than dumb old annoying said.

I think thats a lot of crap. said is as good as any other word but yes you shouldnt over do it. But at the same time using all those different terms like replied, asked..ect can also make storys terribly boring, having to read all these extra words which after a while gets really boring. When you are writing a dialogue between 2 characters you dont even have to use all those terms, you just need to put perspective on who is saying what and then the readers will put it together for themselves.

I also agree with lak Kelli is a little overdone, it seems to me like she is just a female version of link in most aspects and you have stolen some ideas from the games.

I know you are just gonna post back at me saying "aww NL what a load of crap why are you having a go" But im really not, ive read a little of your story and its not bad We just want to help you.
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:17 PM   #140
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I know you all want to help me, and I was trying to listen. But you all kept throwing it back in my face. I was trying to improve and I did. And I don't care what Lakayal says, Kelli is staying. Nothing will make me take her out. There are actually people who like her and will be upset if I take her out. I know I can't make everyone happy, but I just want to keep her. It's my decision. I was planning a lot for her, too. I can't take her out after that.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just want to listen. But some of you were being too harsh and I didn't like that.

EDIT: Also, even if I wanted to take Kelli out of NP, I couldn't anyway, because Link couldn't do that adventure without her. Who would be there to teach him the parry which was useful in defeating Ganondorf? Who would have saved his behind in dungeon #4 several times? Who would have told him Hyrule was under evil in the first place?!
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:35 PM   #141
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Quote:
Also, even if I wanted to take Kelli out of NP, I couldn't anyway, because Link couldn't do that adventure without her. Who would be there to teach him the parry which was useful in defeating Ganondorf? Who would have saved his behind in dungeon #4 several times? Who would have told him Hyrule was under evil in the first place?!

Another, more well-rounded character.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:07 PM   #142
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Nope, wrong. Kelli stays. I can't take her out. Even if I could, I wouldn't anyway. Cause I don't want to. I can change her character a little and it does kind of change later on. Here's her flaws that are shown later:

* she cries over things a lot.
* she argues sometimes, just not in a hurtful way.
* she hates heights. (this was actually shown in NP)
* she hates killing people, even if it's the enemy, except on certain occasions (such as Ganondorf, even though it was Link that actually killed him).

And there's more. Trust me. Like I said, I had a lot planned for Kelli.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:41 PM   #143
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Okay, a removal is never necessary. Would you agree to edit Kelli slightly based on some suggestions by us? Of course this means having to change her wherever it applies in earlier chapters as well, and not just changing ehr for future reference. We can show you that it is possible to keep some of the attributes Kelli has, they just need to be executed in a different way.

You never really have to follow anything we say directly, just listen to what we say and either use it exactly if you want, or use it for inspiration for something greater. We're all willing to help (very calmly *cough*) as long as you promise not to "parry" whatever we say and try to at least use it in one small way or another.

I ask again, "What say you?"
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Old Yesterday, 04:10 PM   #144
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Quote:
I think ALL of you are giving me pointless remarks and just look for things to complain about. Can't you be a little nicer about it instead of being mean? And give me suggestions that aren't pointless?

Well, seeing as we're critics, finding things to complain about is what we DO.

Being a brat isn't going to make people mindlessly worship your story. Every single point I've brought up, you've either ignored or made up a pathetic excuse for. You haven't taken any of my advice into account; you've only told me that my suggestions are "pointless"! Am I supposed to be flattered?

Quote:
First, Chavvah, I did fix my commas. Maybe I haven't fixed them in the first few chapters, but I still did in the later ones.

I checked your latest chapters, and no, you haven't--neither have you fixed the periods. Commas and periods go inside the quotation marks.

Quote:
Second, when did I say Mido was evil? I never said that AT ALL.

Mido chased Kelli out of the forest! When Kokiri believe that leaving the forest means they're going to die!

The problem with Kelli's "tragic" past is that Link already filled the "parents are dead and is oppressed for being different" quota. Kelli is just a boring rehash of Link's life.

Quote:
And if you don't see how Kelli was able to survive in the Lost Woods, there's something wrong with you. The Great Deku Tree protected her, just like he did Link.

Uh, no. I'm telling you what the game has established, which is that anyone who enters the Lost Woods becomes lost. Kelli is not an exception. the Deku Tree has no authority beyond the Kokiri Forest borders. That's why Kokiri didn't (often) go in the Lost Woods. It's barren and dangerous and certainly not the place for a young girl to grow up.

For that matter, the Deku Tree didn't protect Link at any point in time. By the time Link left the forest, the Deku Tree was dead.

Quote:
And don't think she never came across a few healthy mushrooms while she was there.

Strong, medicinal mushrooms, mostly unfit for a healthy person's consumption.

Quote:
And how could a fairy get killed by a Stalfos you ask? OMG, do you realize how much bigger a Stalfos is than a fairy?

That's just my point. How could a large, rather clumsy Stalfos manage to stab a tiny fairy with any accuracy? Especially with the fairy flying around in a panic?

Quote:
And another thing, fairies don't seem to be able to fly very fast, so they couldn't dodge the blows.

All the fairies in Ocarina of Time seem to very fast--certainly fast enough to escape a monster's blows.

Quote:
And about that scene with Kelli, Judo, and Judo's mother, when Kelli's eyes flashed yellow, Judo's mother was a little frightened because no Hylian's ever seen anything like that before. They thought her eyes doing that was a sign she had abilities that could possibly to harm to others, yet they couldn't.

I was complaining about the reaction because a) it's a tad overblown for a Hylian to react that way, b) I think you don't know what "inferior" means. "Inferior" means to be "lower" or "lesser." If the lady thought Kelli was dangerous, she wouldn't think Kelli was "inferior." They're two very different ideas.

Quote:
I think you're just looking for things to complain about, Chavvah.

Duuuuuh.

Quote:
Have you read the book "The Girl with the Silver Eyes"? A girl named Katie had silver eyes and they were the mark of her mysterious ability to make things move without touching them. Well, same goes for Kelli and her eyes flashing different colors.

I haven't, but my sister has. She claims that Katie, though she does have powers, doesn't have very strong powers, is not attractive, is rather clumsy, and so on. She also does not have color-changing eyes. Color-changing eyes are the biggest cliche in Mary Sue history.
Quote:
About all those other remarks of yours, you're just being mean.

Duuuuuuh.

Quote:
I tried giving her flaws, you just don't seem to notice them.

When a reader doesn't notice something, it is 90% of the time the AUTHOR'S fault. If I can't see her flaws in your writing, it is most likely because you didn't write them clearly enough into the text.

Quote:
She's the best character I've ever created. Mary Sue or not, she stays. Kelli is kind, brave, and if you hate her so much, well tough luck!

There's a good attitude! When multiple readers tell you that your character is not balanced, and that the story would be better without the character, then obviously the readers are a bunch of meanies who don't know a good story when they see one!

If you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm.

You should never, ever insult your readers, be they critical or not. These people have devoted their time and energy to letting you know what they believe could be better about your story. You are taking these comments for granted because you would much rather have an audience that praises you constantly. This is not a realistic expectation, and it is not healthy for your writing. When a teacher gives you a bad grade, it isn't because they hate you. It is because you are doing something wrong and they want you to know how to improve.

You ignore valid points in order to feed your delusion that your story is utterly perfect. Sorry, but your story is far from perfect.

On Kellie's "flaws":

Quote:
* she cries over things a lot.

That's not a flaw. It's annoying, certainly, but you gave her this "flaw" to make people sympathize with her. When you have a character cry a lot, especially a female character, it is usually so that the other characters feel sorry for her. Therefore, it is not a flaw. It is just another way to make people like your character. FLAWS SHOULD NEVER EVOKE GOOD FEELINGS.

Besides, basically every Mary Sue in history has this "flaw."

Quote:
* she argues sometimes, just not in a hurtful way.

Everybody argues. That's human, not a flaw (though it would be, if you made it so that she DID argue in a harmful way).

Quote:
* she hates heights. (this was actually shown in NP)

Phobias don't count as flaws, especially if they're realistic phobias.

Quote:
* she hates killing people, even if it's the enemy, except on certain occasions (such as Ganondorf, even though it was Link that actually killed him).

As opposed to "she likes killing people"?

As far as I know, any moral, ethical person would hate killing a person, even if the person deserves it. Again, you have given her a "flaw" that is actually good.

Let me give you just a few examples of real flaws, taken from one of my own original characters (he scored a negative number on the Mary Sue Litmus Test the first time, then a five the second time):

1) Half-blind, with no benefits (as in, no psychic powers to help him see, no advanced senses, or anything else)
2) Is obnoxious
3) Is an alcoholic
4) Has no respect for others
5) Promiscuous
Etc., etc...

The point I'm trying to make is flaws should be debilitating to the character, not helpful or invisible. If the "flaw" is there but does not debilitate the character, it is as good as no flaw at all.

I know you're probably not going to listen to me, since you have thus far mentally blocked any advice I or anyone else has given.

So, with that being said, I'm going to sit back and watch the fireworks.

Also, here are some helpful definitions of words you don't seem to know.

mys-te-ri-ous(adj.): of, relating to, or constituting that which cannot be explained
That is, if Kelli is mysterious, or her eyes are mysterious, then you are saying they cannot be understood or explained.

crit-ic(noun): one given to harsh or critical judgment
Critics are what you invite when you post your story on the internet. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

in-fe-ri-or(adj.): 1. situated lower down 2. a: of low or lower degree or rank b: of poor quality; mediocre 3. of little or less importance, value, or merit
Not "dangerous" or "scary." Something that is inferior is in fact more likely to be helpless and stupid.

P.S. The fact that you get so defensive about a made-up horse amuses me. You do realize that Sunfire isn't real, right?
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Old Today, 08:41 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoPath
Okay, a removal is never necessary. Would you agree to edit Kelli slightly based on some suggestions by us? Of course this means having to change her wherever it applies in earlier chapters as well, and not just changing ehr for future reference. We can show you that it is possible to keep some of the attributes Kelli has, they just need to be executed in a different way.

You never really have to follow anything we say directly, just listen to what we say and either use it exactly if you want, or use it for inspiration for something greater. We're all willing to help (very calmly *cough*) as long as you promise not to "parry" whatever we say and try to at least use it in one small way or another.

I ask again, "What say you?"

Okay, first, sorry I've been gone, I was on a trip. Anyway, I already said I would edit Kelli's character, just not in NP. I would, but I don't think I can due to the fact that some people like her. I will do it in later stories. I've been willing this whole time to listen to people's criticism, I just don't like when they're mean about it. That's why I'm not listening to Chavvah or Steve.

And Chavvah, I see what you're saying. I thought inferior meant different, couldn't do anything right, you know. Like Kelli couldn't do much when she was younger and she was definitely different. Also, commas and periods go outside the quotations. MS Word never said differently.

One more thing. I know Sunfire isn't real. She does, however, SEEM real. Because it's possible to find a palomino horse and name it Sunfire and stuff. I also don't like it when my characters are insulted. How would you like it if I said something mean about a character in a story you wrote?
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Old Today, 09:56 AM   #146
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Hi Stoney. I'm pipking. I've been writing for more years than you have been alive. Which doesn't automatically make me an authority on anything... but perhaps I can offer you a bit of perspective.

First and foremost, as a writer, you can do whatever the hell you feel like in your story. It's your story. But if you want other people to read it, and possibly even enjoy it, you would be wise to heed the advice dished out in this thread - because all of it, even the 'mean' stuff, can help you improve your writing.

Develop a thicker skin. If you ever hope to go anywhere with writing, what the folks on this board tell you will seem like hugs and kisses compared to what you'll get in the real world. You show potential - but honestly, that's all you show at this point. You are not a good writer yet. Knowing this, accepting it, will help you become a better writer.

If you really don't care what people say, and have no interest in improving your writing, don't show your stories to anyone. It is perfectly acceptable to write for yourself alone. But the moment you show your writing, you are implicitly asking people what they think, and you have to accept what they tell you, even if it isn't what you want to hear.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Also, commas and periods go inside dialogue quotes. You cannot argue this fact without looking extremely foolish.
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Old Today, 10:14 AM   #147
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I don't know about that. I'm pretty much a good writer in general. I'm just not a GREAT writer.

And no, commas and periods go outside the quotations. Ask MS Word. I'm sure it will say putting a comma or period inside a quotation is a mistake. Though I've never checked. I will next time I open it.
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Old Today, 10:26 AM   #148
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I hope you don't take any offense to what I'm about to say but it's my honest opinion:


There are many flaws in this story, I have read up to chapter 8 and it's clear you think too highly of yourself and your characters. I find it very hard to believe this story and some of its characters.

When Link and Kelli go to rescue the King, why must you rescue the King so he can show everyone that Link has arrived? Couldn't he just walk into town and then tell everyone he is going to go save the king and then make up a plan to stop Ganondorf?

I'm urging you to take the Mary-Sue on your story and its characters.

Also the commas and periods go inside the quotation, it's one of the dumbest facts to argue as mentioned already. I personally just went into Microsoft Word and typed one sentence both ways, it didn't show either as wrong to me, but that is because I have made some personal preferences to ignore such things. Though I took the feature off and still with the commas and periods outside the quotations just looks weird and wrong and plain bad.

You need to work at writing, or go around read some other people's stories and observe the way they write. If you're willing to improve then maybe you can, it won't kill you.
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Old Today, 10:33 AM   #149
pipking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StonyLonesome
I don't know about that. I'm pretty much a good writer in general. I'm just not a GREAT writer.

And no, commas and periods go outside the quotations. Ask MS Word. I'm sure it will say putting a comma or period inside a quotation is a mistake. Though I've never checked. I will next time I open it.

Stony, I'm sorry to say you are a lost cause. If you continue ignore your own flaws - and continue to argue points of basic grammar that you are painfully, clearly wrong about - then there is no point pressing the issue with you. You're not wretched - but you will never get the kind of positive feedback you so desperately want if you ignore the negative. At any rate, good luck.
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Old Today, 10:35 AM   #150
Moo
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StonyLonesome
I don't know about that. I'm pretty much a good writer in general. I'm just not a GREAT writer.

And no, commas and periods go outside the quotations. Ask MS Word. I'm sure it will say putting a comma or period inside a quotation is a mistake. Though I've never checked. I will next time I open it.


Commas and full stops go inside the quotation marks of a quote at the end of a sentence or clause in "correct" english. But that doesn't always make sense.

And don't be stupid enough to follow Word's suggestions; it is rarely reliable. Not that you even bothered checking before stating something as fact.

I won't even comment on your arrogance and misguided beliefs about your writing ability... Oh, damn, looks like I commented by accident.
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